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Bhante Nandiya

The passage in the suttas most damning to the Eight Garudhammas

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Bhante Nandiya
, 16th-December-2011 at 03:23 PM (1103 Views)
One of the things about the notorious eight garudhammas for the bhikkhunis, is that the whole story is almost never printed, if you're familiar with Bhante Sujato's work you'll already know this, for those who aren't, here I quote from I.B. Horner's translation (some renderings changed to more conventional ones):

"If Ananda, women had not obtained the going forth from home to into homelessness in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata, the holy life, Ananda, would have lasted long, true dhamma would have endur
ed for a thousand years. But since, Ananda, women have gone forth ... in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata, now, Ananda, the holy life will not last long, true dhamma will endure only for five hundred years.
"Even, Ananda, as those households which have many women and few men easily fall a prey to robbers, to pot-thieves, even so, Ananda, in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth from home into homelessness, that hole life will not last long.
"Even, Ananda, as when the disease known as white bones attacks a whole field of rice that field of rice does not last long, even so, Ananda, in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth from home into homelessness, that holy life will not last long.
""Even, Ananda, as when the disease known as red rot attacks a whole field of sugar-cane that field of sugar-cane does not last long, even so, Ananda, in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth from home into homelessness, that holy life will not last long.
"Even, Ananda, as a man, looking forward, may build a dyke to a great reservoir so that the water may not overflow, even so, Ananda, were the eight garudhammas for bhikkhunis laid down by me, looking forward, not to be transgressed by them during their life."
For some reasons, in nearly every published work about bhikkhunis or women's ordination where the story is re-told, the middle two similes, in which women are compared to a disease, are omitted. Thus people never experience the full horror of this passage. And what I think, is the reason for this omission is because it ruins credibility of the story, it is there, where people will tend to fail to make a leap of faith. The first and last similes which often are included in re-tellings are a bit of a stretch but you can go "hum-ha, maybe" to them, but what are we to make of the Buddha comparing his foster-mother to a blight?
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  1. Rudite Salina's Avatar
    Dear Bhante,

    Am I really supposed to believe that the Buddha said this?
    I remember reading the Bhikkhuni`s Quarters sutta ( SN 16.10 ) where Ananda says:

    "Be patient, Venerable Kassapa, women are foolish."
    ( Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi )

    I have a hard time understanding what statements like these are to do with the Dhamma!
    To be honest I do not believe that the Buddha compared his foster-mother to a blight and the Venerable Ananda said that women are foolish.

    With metta,
    Rudite
    Updated 17th-December-2011 at 11:51 PM by Rudite Salina
  2. Andria Armstrong's Avatar
    Lovingkindness embraces all beings. All bodies, all genders, all beings.
    ♥Andria
  3. Jerrod Lopes's Avatar
    Dear all,

    I can see what purpose something like this may have served back when it was created. Society would have rejected the bhikkhunis existence as an organization without being subject to the bhikkhu organization. I am surprised however that the Buddha would have made these rules. I base that on my own emotional reasons of dislike for the mistreatment of women, therefor not necessarily seeing the wisdom in this. I do have doubt that the Buddha made these rules himself and will investigate. Though I think he is saying that the bhikkhuni organization absent of these rules would be like a rotting field of sugar-cane, etc. Not that women in general are doomed to be a disease or blight regardless of anything. I also doubt that Ven. Ananda meant that "women are foolish" as compared to men. I am certain we can find suttas stating that men are also foolish. Without foolishness, why would the world require dhamma in the first place yeah? So I think that statement by Ven. Ananjda may have been taken out of context. It could also be that when he said this he was not enlightened at that point yet. Either way.... seems to me these rules are way out of date and the sangha could do well to review and revise some things that are no longer necessary in today's world. Things like this only serve to keep stupid tracks of reasoning alive, indulge delusion, and promote dischord such as that we saw with the bhikkhuni ordinations of recent times. Where biology is the only real difference, why any subjugation? If the laiety is still that deluded, then is there hope for them anyway? Or is it a waste of time to bother in such places where ultra-deluded thinking and iron-stubborn wills are the norm? If Thailand, India, wherever can't get their act together and see women as equal by now in this age, then let's move on and take the dhamma to those who are skillful enough to receive it.

    With respect and metta,

    Jerrod
  4. Jerrod Lopes's Avatar
    Dearest Bhante, Rudite and Andria,

    I apologize if some of statements above were a bit spirited. It is a shortcoming of mine to be a bit short-tempered when it comes to what I perceive as silly, mindless, etc... such as misogynistic views in our modern age. Nonetheless, I think I may have spoken (typed) too quickly without due thought given to my words. Please accept my apologies.

    Metta and respect,

    Jerrod
  5. Rudite Salina's Avatar
    Dear Jerrod, I can`t see anything wrong
    With metta,
    Rudite
  6. Andria Armstrong's Avatar
    Dear Jerrod,
    Apologies accepted!

    We can all learn from our experiences. I have moments where I get so upset with all the prejudice that myself and others experience that I explode into "angry feminist rants."
    I actually agree with parts of what you where saying. I personally feel that it is important to find a good balance between healthy expression of deep discomforts and simply exploding.
    The world is filled with diversity. Cultures can be very different.

    Aspects of my existence are such that within the same moment I can go from receiving the end of a misogynistic beating, to being handed the metaphorical beating stick and "encouraged" to engage in behaviors which make me "hurl up my cookies" to put it lightly. There are always more skillful options. As the Buddha would say, there is a middle way. So that is why I choose to the very best of my abilities the options of love and forgiveness.

    Together, by our examples of virtuous living, we can bring love, forgiveness, patience, and acceptance. With our hearts filled with love we can dissolve the stick of hatred, and collectively evolve towards a greater acceptance of ourselves and the universe around us.

    There is a prayer which I fully agree with the heart of, despite differences in beliefs. I feel it is appropriate here. The original is called the serenity prayer. It goes like this:
    "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

    I embrace the heart of this prayer in my own life, and revise it here as this:
    "May there arise within us the strength, serenity, and patience to accept the parts of life which we cannot change. Empower our hearts with wisdom and lovingkindness. So that we may affect our lives and the lives of others in ways most beneficial for all beings."

    Namaste
    ♥Andria
  7. Dee Randell's Avatar
    I would have thought that the Buddha incorrectly judging that the dhamma would only last 500 years - when it has clearly lasted more! - would in itself alone suggest that there's something wrong with the passage.

    I wonder if the Buddha was truly reluctant to ordain women in the same way he was initially reluctant to teach anyone the dhamma. If he could see the potential in every man, and woman, to attain Enlightenment, why would he be reluctant in the first place in either case.