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Thread: Is the Middle Way the eightfold path?

  1. #1

    Is the Middle Way the eightfold path?

    Hi everyone, Can I have your opinion on this pls.

    IS BUDDHISM THE ‘WORD OF SIDDHARTHA’?

    Is The ‘Middle Way’ the eightfold path?

    The ‘Chitta’, our dualistic thought process is the creator of the so-called ‘you’ and ‘I’ the ‘Samsara’.

    Neither ‘noble’ nor ‘sacred’ the “Middle Way’ is a process for the renunciation of the world of duality the ‘Samsara’ we are trapped in. Unlike the ‘Buddhist eightfold path’, the ‘Middle Way’ is not a ‘way out of suffering’. As it is always, in the world of duality where there is suffering there is bliss and vice versa. Didn’t you see a vicious cycle in this so-called ‘way out of suffering’?

    The ‘Middle Way’ is the only way to conquer the dualistic world we have created for ourselves due to our inability to grasp the true nature of our so-called existence for what it is, the ‘Dhamma’ the ‘Dependent Origination’ an extremely complex process beyond space and time and therefore beyond the comprehension of the human mind. Hence it is the ‘Middle Way’ that leads the seeker to ultimately experience the emptiness of this process within by neutralizing his ‘Chitta’. Seen is the creator of his ‘Samsara. Gone beyond the cycle of birth and death, the final deliverance. The End of both mind and matter.

    To guide the ‘Chitta’ the thought process on the ‘Middle Way’ unique to each and every one of us, away from the world of duality, Siddhartha disclosed a set of tools. It is the ‘Mental Factor’ the inseparable concomitance Sila, Samadhi, Wisdom.

    The ‘Dhamma’ is ‘Dependent Origination’ a process where there is no beginning no end. It cannot be created nor can it be destroyed but it can be neutralized. Whereas Buddhism is a ‘Chakka’ a wheel, a circular path where there is no way out. Therefore the so-called Buddhist concepts the ‘Four noble truths’ and the ‘Noble Eightfold Path’ are irrelevant to a seeker of the ‘Middle Way’.

    ‘In ‘Samsara’ there are no ‘extremes’ to avoid. Either one is in it
    or out of it. The ‘Middle Way’ is to go beyond the world of duality the
    ‘Samsara where there is right and wrong, good and bad, merits and sins.’

  2. #2
    Hi Bradly, you seem to ask the (almost) same questions over and over again, not happy with the answers you get, or are you trolling? (Just a question, not an accusation)
    Why do you "yell" your first question? Is that meant to be like a headline in a newspaper?
    And about it: no, I don't think so. The "word of the Buddha" is, what we now call "buddhist", but "Buddhism" is not (only) the word of the Buddha. A lot of these statements or questions above equal "apples with pears", how my math-teacher would say it.
    Like: The "word of the Buddha" is the words that Buddha said, or what was remembered of it. Buddhism is a lot (more) it is most of all a philosophy and a (sort of) religion without a god as per what the Christian, Jew and Islam world considers a god. So "Buddhism" and "The word of the Buddha" is not the same and its also not really "equal-able".
    It's a bit like saying: Is "Mathematics" equations?
    Well: equations can be mathematical, but mathematics is much more than equations. So: No, you can not equal it. It is not the same. One is not equal with the other.
    Same counts for the "middle way" and "The eightfold path".
    And the sentence:
    ....the Dhamma" is "Dependent Origination...
    . No, I don't think so.
    Dependent origination is a part of Buddhas teachings. By far not all he says. There is more.
    So: "Dependent origination" is a small part of "Dhamma", but "Dhamma" is not (only) "Dependent Origination"...The word "Dhamma" "is" (means) a lot more in Buddhism.
    It also stands for something which has no English counterpart... its something like the law and order of the cosmos... or "all things". That is how Buddha used it, as there was not "Buddhism" at Buddhas times like there was not Christianity at the times of "Jesus", (an avowed, active practicing Jew). I am sure, you looked that up in the internet? So rather than "Dhamma *is*", it is probably more correct to say "Dhamma means...". Dhamma *is* actually only a word with a lot of meanings.
    And "Middle Way" *is* a phrase that means many things too, according to who says it in which circumstance. So: same thing:
    with "The Middle Way" somebody might - might!- "mean" the "Eightfold Path". But the "Eightfold Path" means more than "The Middle Way".
    Than there are sentences like...
    The ‘Middle Way’ is the only way to conquer the dualistic world.....
    ... what do you (if it is you who makes this statements) mean with "....conquer the dualistic world..."?
    I don't want to conquer any world. So probably what you call "the middle way" might be interesting for you, but probably not for me.
    Or
    the ‘Dhamma’ the ‘Dependent Origination’ an extremely complex process beyond space and time
    .
    Errr.. no, to me it is not: it is our simple normal boring everyday-life. Within space and time.
    The "words of the Buddha" in the Nikayas seem to make things quite easy to understand and straight. Would "downright" be a word for that?

    Therefore my opinion:
    I just picked out some of the things, stated in the above post.
    And I find a lot of the wording of that questions and their conclusions very confusing.
    Not only that, but they seem to my simple mind even deceptive and misleading.
    To me, if somebody equals "apples with pears", I wonder immediately if they want to trick me...
    or if they trick themselves. My Dad did that sometimes to find out if I realize that I got mislead.
    I hope, I am not being rude here... And if I upset you, I sincerely apologize.
    I very much respect your search for the "Middle Way"
    It is just my humble and maybe a bit - as I said - simple personal opinion and impression of this post.

    May you be happy, find your unique middle way, make it a bit more simple (if you like!) to avoid misleading
    yourself and/or others and... to quote Ed: "chop wood, carry water".

  3. #3
    Very hard thing to do - just be.
    “Here are roots of trees, here are empty huts – practice jhana! Do not be negligent! Do not regret it later!” - Buddha

  4. #4
    HI Ruth,
    Thanks for your comments. I can understand your displeasure as a Buddhist. But instead of your verbal tirade, may I respectfully ask you, would it not have been useful if you expended all that energy to correct any misconceptions contained in the article for the benefit of the members of the community? The articles I submit under the main heading ‘Is Buddhism the word of Siddhartha’ are not my works. I forward them to the forum purely for the purpose of sharing information especially when there is a wide spectrum of opinion about Buddhist teachings. As you know, there are many schools of thought in Buddhism, each claiming to represent the original word of Buddha. Given this situation how are we to know the genuine from the counterfeits? Toss a coin?
    As much as others are entitled to their opinion, you are entitled to yours. No one should have any qualms about it. However, in Samsara the world of the ignorant where what we perceive as reality is an illusion, can we honestly distinguish between right and wrong? Blind faith is a dangerous game. The history of the world, as well as its current events, provide ample testimony to this fact. It is a shame we don’t see what is happening around us.

    Best regards. Bradley

  5. #5
    Administrator/ 5 Precept Keeper Senior Member Jerrod Lopes's Avatar
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    There is a simple test to determine what is dhamma and what is not. If it is not in line with the Four Noble Truths or The Noble Eightfold Path, it isn't what the Buddha taught. He kept it that simple for good reason. Anything else is likely tainted or perverted by ignorance. Furthermore, it makes penultimate sense to me that actual truth is never upsetting, nor exciting. I've pointed out before that your articles are misguided. Whomever is writing them obviously has the wrong motives for doing so. These writings don't aim to enlighten, rather belittle the reader for his/her beliefs and elevate his/her own feelings about his/herself. It just is obvious, not beneficial in a wholesome way. Are all of the suttas the word of the Buddha? Personally, I very much doubt it. But I KNOW these articles of your certainly are not Dhamma. I would urge you, yet again, to leave these on these behind for your own good. If you've come and asked opinions solely to have something to argue, this is NOT that sort of forum. Not an accusation, just a statement. Also remember, there is a vast difference between dhamma, the truth of things, and Buddhism. Buddhism is man-made, fallible. Dhamma, Tao, Truth...universal.

  6. #6
    Dear Bradley
    Thanks for your comments. I can understand your displeasure as a Buddhist.
    May I say with all respects: my displeasure is not as a Buddhist, it's as a person who feels like getting mislead on purpose.

    But instead of your verbal tirade, may I respectfully ask you, would it not have been useful if you expended all that energy to correct any misconceptions contained in the article for the benefit of the members of the community?
    Well, getting mislead was my basic opinion and my "tirade" was meant to explain why. Sorry, if I came across "tirading".
    I actually don't like to discuss anything with somebody whose intentions seem to be.. how can I say it without getting rude?... tricking me and playing games with words. That can be fun, but it doesn't help anybody. Thus: no corrections of misconceptions here from me: I just don't like playing these games.

    The articles I submit under the main heading ‘Is Buddhism the word of Siddhartha’ are not my works.
    I understand.

    I forward them to the forum purely for the purpose of sharing information
    Information? I didn't have the impression there was a lot of information in this article. A lot of statements. Yes. Again: my personal impression.
    As you know, there are many schools of thought in Buddhism, each claiming to represent the original word of Buddha. Given this situation how are we to know the genuine from the counterfeits? Toss a coin?
    Now there is actually a question that seems to come from your heart... my answer would be:
    Go to the source, read the suttas. Thats what I do, when I try to built an opinion: I try to get as close to the source of the topic as possible. Here: the words of the Buddha.
    They are available for free on the internet: https://suttacentral.net/
    And there are a lot of audios and videos if anybody has problems to understand.
    There is also a lot of information on which suttas seem to be corrupted and which ones seem to be rather genuine too.
    Scientific information... with sources and reasons.

    As much as others are entitled to their opinion, you are entitled to yours.
    Thank you.. and you to yours. And it would have been nice and probably enlightening for the forum, if you would have shared your opinion about this article with us.
    But here it is, an article from a third "party" that's unknown to us, and to me personally these articles seem not very...
    Jerrod called it "beneficial in a wholesome way"

    Blind faith is a dangerous game.
    Agreed. Thats why most of the suttas speak of what we can DO now, here, in our everyday-life, not what we should believe.
    They speak a easy language. Short sentences to the point. Not hard to understand.
    Buddhas was quite unique there: the only "founder" of a "religion" (as far as I know) who asked everybody, NOT to blindly believe him or what he said, but to test it.
    Give it a try.

    Have a good day
    Ruth

  7. #7
    Hi Bradley
    just in case you are interested some videos and reads:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKpb3_1CACk Ajahn Brahmali on Benefits of reading the Suttas
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47-a...5xm_o5fLLJ62ie Bhante Sujato introduces the book "Authenticity of the early Buddhist texts"... I think you can download that also for free.
    And here a whole course about it online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47-a...5xm_o5fLLJ62ie
    This is also very interesting about the autenticity: a comperative study of the Agamas and Nikayas... I haven't read it (more than 500pages), but saw some of the lessons life online.
    https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamb...pstudyvol1.pdf
    Here a shorter reflection (20pages) on the same study:
    https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamb...comp-agama.pdf

    hope you enjoy these talks and reads as much as I did,
    And that will be my last post on this.
    All the best,
    Ruth

  8. #8
    Hi Ruth, Ed, Jerrod, Thanks for your contributions. I hope the following beautiful 'Zen' story would be an inspiration to you.
    ‘The sound of one hand clapping’ - A Zen story.
    Have you ever heard the ‘Sound of one hand clapping’? As long as you are trapped in this world of duality, all what you hear is the ‘sound of two hands clapping’. However, the ‘Sound of one hand clapping’ could only be heard, to quote the Zen master Hakuin,
    “in the depths of the innermost self, more remote than the farthest mountain,
    and yet closer than close”
    In other words, it is to be heard right there within you, so close yet so far for we seek it without. Stop running after others and turn your gaze inwards to find the way to this ‘secret house of the sound of one hand’ the abode of those who have gone beyond but yet there is no abode or those who have gone beyond are to be found. Best regrds.

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